Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

-begin rant-


With the exception of one, every single 1oz coin I have looked at or bought during the last 3 months in our scrap gold business has been a counterfeit. (No problems at all with the many fractionals we have bought!)

1) Counterfeit 1916 Double Eagle. Two coin experts, neither one wanted to buy it because they both said that the mint mark seemed off. The coin was gold - acid told me that - and we were able to scrap it at 98%, no money lost. Still annoying.

2) Counterfeit Maple Leaf. I started a thread about this. Acid test told me not to buy this one and I passed. A competitor bought it and was mortified when I called them the next day and encouraged them to perform an acid test.

3) Today - several counterfeit "Philharmonic" 1oz coins. Had never even heard of these things before, but research confirms that they are 100 Euro, .999 fine gold coins. Acid tested at 18K but no higher. I damn near filed one of them in half to be sure I got a good sample. Decided to buy two of them as 18K gold and just assume the risk. Passed on the other 8 the guy had on him and 45 he claimed to have at home. The guy claimed to get them from his friend's "uncle." What do you know - 30 minutes later - two thugged out guys come along with some more of these beauties. One claims to get them from (guess) his uncle! Also claimed that his "uncle" gave him a gold bar that he got $50,000 for. If you're going to try to pass counterfeit 1 oz gold coins, don't tell crazy stories and don't dress like you just came from being an extra in a gangsta rap video.


Are there any real 1oz coins out there? Jesus....


-end of rant-

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Sure, they just are not held by people that would sell to a scrap gold buyer.:biggrin:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Haha... yes, you're probably right. We buy a lot of fractionals that are set in rings or pendants, but for the most part people don't bring big coins.

So perhaps I'm just getting the burnt part of the steak. :111:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

TOOO - Funny-

Skeptic BE CAREFUL out there. SORRY but any IDIOT, should know at least enough to NEVER sell a coin like that to a scraper..... No offense to you but... Let's get real here.
Unless they are stolen coins to buy Heroin or crack they are fakes.:bandito::bandito::bandito:

The last time I was at my local there was some thug type straight out of a rap video talking some sort of crap about how he had guess what?
coins from his uncle!!

& surprisingly Guess what? His cousin worked at a large " financial institute" and he had insider information that sooner ( this was 8 months ago) rather than later, the AMERO was going to be sweeping the nation by storm within 3 months! AND he had a CONNECTION:17092: for those too!!! :565:

I could tell the dealer/owner had seen this sh!t one and a million times and actually gave the guy the satisfation of rambling on.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The big run up cant be too far off .

The suckers are starting to pour out the woodwork like the rats that they are.

T

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Too funny...

We have bought some legitimate coins, but all fractionals or 1oz silver. Generally people who have claimed to have real 1oz gold stuff at home don't want to sell it for what I want to pay, and I don't hold it against them at all - my main thing is buying scrap, their main thing is gaining from an investment. No problem there.

But I'm sure these two coins I bought won't turn up stolen - after all, they're counterfeit. But I guarantee you the guys that have been peddling these today aren't the ones that made them... they probably couldn't even counterfeit a sick note...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I think people are now starting to research and produce FAKE GOLD rather than counterfeit money.

THink about it........
you are not passing a fake HUNDO at the local gas station,

You are passing a fake coin or bar to someone who is going to pay you cash with no paper trail.

Next time you get one of these, ask them for their # address, name , next of kin, and while your at it social security #, just to be "SAFE"

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I got a signature (fingerprints on paper :wink:) and color copy of their driver's license on the two I bought, even though I only bought them as 18K scrap. We do that on all sales anyway, unless we know the person.

But yeah - I think counterfeiting gold coins is going to be a big deal.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

They should be easy enough to test via a scale.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Thus they have succeeded in their mission in selling fake gold for money for a profit.

PLEASE when you melt it or have your refiner melt tell me what the outcome is.

Could it be that an outer layer tests ok for 18k but inside is CuNi?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Kind of a repeat of a post I made in another thread, but the weight was dead on - 31.1g or 20.00dwt.

I ordered some digital calipers for each location, but I loaned them out today... if I'd had them here I could've measured the diameter. There is (conceivably) no way they could have gotten both the weight AND size right, though they could very easily get one of the two right.

I'm pretty confident they are solid 18K. They look like high karat gold, and the inside of the coin (I filed into one about 1/2") is consistent in color.

Also, I don't think copper/nickel will hold under even the 10K testing acid, much less the 18K... could be wrong though. Maybe they've come up with some weird alloy that looks like high purity gold and holds up under acid. That's why I passed on the other 45 + 8.

We're going to take them to a place around here that does some assaying, and see what they tell us. I'm pretty confident it is around .750 though.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Just measured one with digital calipers...

Correct width is 37mm. These are 37.02mm. Correct thickness is 2.0mm. These are 1.86mm.

Very good fakes though.



And I just had a THIRD guy bring another one. Jesus Christ...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm I missing something. These are the correct weight, slightly wider, and slightly thinner. I would think they would have to be much thicker if the weight is right and diameter is close in order not to be gold coins. I don't have my charts in front of me but .02 mm might be within manufacturing tolerances.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Since I don't have the equipment to perform the necessary tests, I only buy gold that has been slabbed by PCGS, NGC or ANACS. This goes for modern bullion as well as the older stuff.

It's an extra level of security and a bit easier to liquidate without any issues like your having.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

<!-- / icon and title --> Which is exactly how I'd pass a counterfeit if that was my game... fake slabs.
:565:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yeah, buy them from HONG KONG too.

:111::111:

Just kidding.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Sounds like the Canadian and Austrian governments would be interested in hearing from you/secret service?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Any chance of posting some photos of those bogus phils? I own a few gold phils and your news here is causing be a wee bit of indigestion.:signs14:

What did the bogus phils weigh?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

That is a bitch the fakes are getting that close to real specs. This problem is only going to snowball as things get worse.
I hope you have a really nasty hideout gun.:wink:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yeah right - the last thing I want is any agency poking around in my business. :biggrin:

Exactly. I don't give a damn what "certification" it has with it - if I can't weigh and measure it, I'm not buying it. Acid testing is what I prefer most, because acid never lies. I realize that many times, people won't want their coin rubbed on a block though, but measuring/weighing is still an option that is definitely worth the time.

My biz partner took the coin I didn't file with him. I'll post a photo of the one I filed into tomorrow morning. I looked at photos of real ones and I can't see any differences.

See earlier posts - weight was exactly 1 ozt.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Here is what we have been racking our brains trying to figure out:

From all indications, these coins ARE gold, just not 24K. Most likely 18K. Yet, assuming they are 18K, cost per coin for the material is about $700. These guys were willing to sell 45 of them for $300 a piece.

So, if they are 18K, and these guys would sell them at such a low number, it could only stand to reason that they were stolen, since if they were working with the counterfeiter, they would have been told not to let them go below $900 or so.

Yet, it seems very unlikely that they stole a bunch of these from a counterfeiter. And it is just as unlikely that they were stolen from a collector. Would someone who had a ton of these coins have all fakes? Wouldn't someone spending that much money know exactly what they were buying?

And these guys are definitely not the ones counterfeiting the coins... they have all the sophistication of a rock. Bringing the coins in 3 separate groups only hours apart. Giving ridiculous stories. Not giving a damn how much we offered as long as they could get cash today. And to be frank, they all looked like white trash. One of the guys in the first group was black and looked pretty ghetto... just being blunt here.

This whole episode is just weird.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Holy smokes! The coins are spot on perfect weight and diameter, and the thickness if off by only 7%, being slightly thinner. I'll wager that this fake would even fool a Fisch.

We must find out the exact composition of the metal used. Such a coin could concievably circulate through reputable dealers and never be detected.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

This has me a bit concerned as well. I only have one, obtained through a trade from a GIMer at the end of last year. I feel like I need to inspect mine. Not that I suspect anything from the member I traded with, but just for my own peace of mind. I certainly wouldn't want to trade this to someone else, or have it buy/sell through a regular dealer.

So do you think a specific gravity test would be a good starting point?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yes - if only to confirm what seems inescapable: that the SG will measure out at or slightly higher (~7%) than that of pure gold. It's a simple matter of weight over volume, and the fakes appear near perfect in both regards.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Be very carefull as something does not smell right!!

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The gangstas are known to be in on the PM game.

Show me ya grill...Ill scrap it for some dough

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

any way or connections to an "expert". Send a coin in and figure out what's going on? If you or they are willing to bite the bullet of the cost of the coin of course.

This could be really big, and 99% of bullion buyers are probably not ready or haven't heard of anything like this. Weight/diameter test is usually "bulletproof" for gold coinage.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

It sounds to me like somebody is missing something.

I mean think about it. Why on earth would counterfitters go to the trouble to make a gold coin with 18K instead of 24K and sell them for $300??

Even if the coins were stolen, I just don't see the point of making them in 18K. Why not 14K or gold plate? If the whole point is to scam someone, it seems like a pretty expensive way to do it.



Something doesn't add up here.


.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The more I read this the more I think that the coins are real. My bet is they are stolen.

The weight and dimensions are correct. Any material that would be as dense would be more expensive.

If you are melting them anyway just cut one in half to assure yourself.

If you really want to know, spend the $25 on an assay.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

My camera is absolute crap, but here are a couple of somewhat blurry shots. Couldn't use the flash because these things shine like gold when the light hits them! :biggrin:

Measurements from the coin I didn't mutilate:

Diameter: 37.02mm (I got 37.01mm the first time I measured)
Thickness: 1.86mm
Weight: 31.1g/20.00dwt


This is obviously the one I filed into. Color is consistent throughout, with the exception of the spot where I dropped 22K acid directly onto the coin. Samples taken from inside the coin hold up indefinitely under 18K testing acid.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Our next step is going to be having these assayed, which we plan to get started on Monday. Hope to hear something back within a week.

If they are in fact gold, I guess we'll try to buy all the rest up at $300/ea. That will conceivably give us a hefty profit while at the same time getting these things out of circulation.




It is not possible for them to be real. They fail a 22K acid test. A 24K coin (and even a 22K) should not show ANY reaction to that acid. It eats samples from this coin. Plus the thickness is off by enough to be more than a margin of error...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Skeptic, Check to see if your camera has a "macro" function, usually a flower icon. That will allow you to focus on objects up close. Then you may be able to get a clear photo.

As for thickness, if these are fakes, maybe they aren't struck with the same depth of relief as the real deal. Maybe that's why they measure too thin. Or maybe your calipers are out of calibration.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

This makes no sense at all. Why make replicas out of real gold when you can just sell the gold as scrap? I haven't heard about these fake coins anywhere else. I bet they are real. Just my two cents.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

This is the only theory that makes sense to me at this point:

1. Some sophisticated operation somewhere either stole a bunch of 24K gold and counterfeited 24K coins with an actual content of 18K, hoping to maximize their profit from the stolen merchandise. But since the content was "free" to them, they don't care how much the coins were sold for in the end. OR,
2. Someone holding physical gold decided to work with or become a counterfeiter in order to make money and potentially buy even more gold. But in this scenario, I don't see them letting the holders let these coins go for $300 each.

In addition to numerous single gold teeth, we have in fact scrapped a few "grills" :111:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Anyone remember the thread where the guy was claiming that some of the name brand silver rounds (A-mark and englehards) he bought from APMEX were impure based on the way they were melting and some assays that were done? It caused a big stir until APMEX had some sent out for assays and they were perfectly legit.

edit: Also if those are fake coins they're felonies. Secret service may concievably get involved if they find out about them. I sure wouldn't buy them.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Thanks, I always wondered what that was! Guess I should RTFM every now and then. :111:

I was able to take a couple that may be slightly better, but without being able to use the flash, it's still difficult to get a very nice shot.

I don't think the calipers are at fault; I used the same ones to measure diameter (which was only off by 0.01mm in the first test and 0.02mm in the second) and the thickness. It's no coincidence they were that close on the diameter...

Again, they cannot be real if they fail the acid test. It defies the laws of chemistry.

Yes, there could theoretically be some problem with my acids or the block I was using. However, we use the same stuff all the time on real 24K and 22K stuff, and there is no reaction.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Well, the best way to make a passable $10 bill is in the paper. I bleach out 100 $20 bills when I plan on running-off a thousand dollars of $10 bill. Problem is though is it's kinda hard to turn a profit.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

My guess is that your testing chemicals are off.

If someone was going to go through all the trouble, counterfeit gold, it certainly would not be with real gold, at real weights, and would not be for bullion only.

IF they were going to go through all the trouble with real gold, they would go for something with numi value, not a phil.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

They may be felonies in Austria, but I'm not sure about here... they are not US legal tender. True, it is illegal to stamp something as .999 when it is not in fact 24K gold, but I don't think the SS is going to be stumbling all over themselves to investigate something petty like this. If it was a US coin, yeah, I wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole....

Because 24K is worth more than 18K. Case in point - the fake Maple Leaf a lady brought me recently. I offered $825 but turned it down when it failed an acid test. Place across the street bought it for probably the same price or higher, just because it looked right and the weight was close enough. They shit on themselves when I called about it and they did an acid test. It failed mine, it failed theirs. Yet even if it was 18K gold, someone still turned a profit out of it because it was puchased as 24K.

Let's say the chemicals are off (they aren't :wink:). Do you think the difference in thickness (0.14mm) is within the mint's margin of error? And could a real 24K coin be off in thickness by 0.14mm yet still weigh EXACTLY 1 ozt?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The Austrian mint guarantees their purity and weight. Time to give them a call and ask what the tolerances are.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I have never used acid and I do not work in the scrap gold business but I would think that the weight AND the dimensions would have to be right for it to be legit.

There is a problem for a gold coin if:

1.) the weight is correct but the dimensions (diameter, thickness) are way off

or

2.) the dimensions (diameter and thickness) are correct but the weight is way off

I could be wrong on gold weight variance but for silver you can have a weight variance of +/- 0.5 grams based on my experience of handling old 1-oz silver art bars but for a gold coin or bar, that weight variance is much much smaller.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/counterfeit

"...Under its powers to define and punish offenses of international law and its powers to control interstate and foreign commerce, Congress has passed legislation against the counterfeiting of foreign money and securities within the United States. "

"...To retain counterfeit money or government obligations knowingly is also a criminal offense, regardless of how possession was acquired."

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Hm... good thing we are not going to retain them. :111:

First thing tomorrow they're going to be assayed.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Only metal I know of which is significantly more dense than gold is platinum. Tungsten is slightly more dense than gold, but not dense enough to account for such a large difference in thickness.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Density of gold = 19.300 gr/cc
Density of tungsten = 19.250 gr/cc

They are very close. In fact, tungsten is often used to forge gold coins. The main difficulty that it presents is that it's extremely high melting point means that it's difficult to form into shapes -- so they insert a tungsten disc in the middle of the coin or bar, and surround it with real gold.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Great info guys.

A lot of the class rings are now being made of tungsten though, right? I have noticed that some metals, like stainless steel, and I believe tungsten, will not melt under 22K acid.

So if I'm correct and tungsten won't melt, then they aren't tungsten...


My partner just called me. Some guys just brought some of these coins to a tent event we have going in a city about 30 minutes away from the location where they hit us up 3 times last night. At this point, I don't even expect anyone to believe me anymore. This is getting crazy. These things must be flooding the area...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Density of gold = 19.30 gr/cc
Density of tungsten = 19.25 gr/cc

They are very close. In fact, tungsten is often used to forge gold coins. The main difficulty that it presents is that it's extremely high melting point means that it's difficult to form into shapes -- so they insert a tungsten disc in the middle of the coin or bar, and surround it with real gold.

Non-radioactive metals more dense than gold or tungsten include:

Osmium = 22.61 gr/cc
Iridium = 22.56
Platinum = 21.4
Rhenium = 21.0

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The site I was looking at may be wrong about tungsten:

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/me...ties-d_50.html

It lists gold at 19,320 kg/m^3 and tungsten at 19,600 kg/m^3. Wikipedia has tungsten slightly less dense than gold.

Only other metal close is depleted Uranium. Got Geiger??

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

But could any of these metals be alloyed to turn them to a gold color and still maintain such a high density?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

That coin looks perfect - I'm comparing it to a 1991 Phil which I keep on my desk. My coin is deonominated in Shillings and the rim is very thin. Your coin has a wider rim. I'm too lazy to pull out my newer Euro Phils to see if the rim style is the same as your photo. If that is a fake, it's a damn near perfect one!

Please let us know what the metal analysis turns up. As the perp said in Dirty Harry: "Hey man! I's gotz t'know!":biggrin:

P.S. Is the cut surface of your coin also gold colored?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

As someone else wrote, they sound stolen. A counterfeit that good would command more money than the sellers accepting only 300. Stolen goods are always priced extremely low to move them quickly for cash.

As for the acid test, dont know about that one. In science a person could take a known 24K, 22k and 18k and perform the tests on them as a control. Then immediately perform the acid test on the subject coin. This should lay to rest if there is something wrong with the acid that is being used.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Stolen gold coins - happens all the time.

Stolen counterfeits? A little more out there. But about the only thing that makes sense in this case, unless the raw gold being used to make the counterfeits was stolen.

In that case, their cost per coin is virtually zero, though they can get conceivably get a 24K price, without the suspicion of selling the bullion in whatever form it may have been in when stolen.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Do you mean the part I filed into? If so, yes, it is the same color as the exterior. That is the primary reason I bought two of them.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

they say to have 45 more of these, sounds like a scam.

Some hick bring in some [b]real[b] coins and they take a bit of a loss, then they get the buyer convinced that he has a great deal (those guys sure are stupid taking a loss on these coins) and then they offload the rest on him without a second look, only these ones are the fakes.

Don't judge a book by its cover, way too many con men have used it to their advantage.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I have thought about that, but there's a pretty easy way to avoid that ripoff - just weigh and measure each individual coin. If we get the first two assayed and they come back as 18K or something like that, then we'll know that as long as all the other coins have the same weight/size, that's what they have to be, as well.

Or, we could just spot check - file into and acid test random coins.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Doesn't make sense to me either, at current spot price, if someone were to make a counterfeit 1 oz gold Phil out of 18 Karat gold, it'd cost 'em $702.53, and then to pass it for an authenic 1 oz Gold Phil? there's only a $235.40 difference, counterfeiters aren't stupid people, criminal yes, but not stupid, I'd never think they'd use real gold to counterfeit another gold coin, and I'm not sure, but the other metals mentioned, that are close to gold, are hard to work with, hard to obtain, and I don't think they'd only make a hand full, they'd run off a lot to make it worth their while, and I think we would have heard something about it by now, I'm not saying it'd be impossible, but if everything is correct the OP has stated, I'd go with faulty test equipment....

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I repeat:

I'm telling you, we use these acids day in and day out, they aren't wrong. :biggrin:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

You suspect / believe these are counterfeit and you're still considering continuing to do business with their purveyors?

Why would you do that? Especially when the title of your thread is "Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?"

Have I misread this thread and your intentions?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

LOL - that is a good question. It is annoying to be brought counterfeit coins.

However, if the content of the coins is in fact gold, and especially if it is something like .750 fine, then I will buy the coins for next to nothing and turn a very healthy profit.

We are not investing any more money into these things before we get the results of an assay on the first two. Then we can compare weight/size of the others and know if we are buying the exact same thing.

And by doing this, we take these coins "off the market", and they'll never be passed anywhere else, just melted.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Excuse me, but you are creating a market for counterfeit goods, thereby increasing demand for them and likely encouraging said counterfeiting activity. Seems to me that you are motivated by greed and looking to excuse it with rationalization.

"...turn a very healthy profit"

A more responsible response would have been to say "these coins are counterfeit, you have been ripped off, where did you get them? You really should report this to whomever are the appropriate authorities for the transaction." Then you could also notify your trade group and warn them, helping to completely shut off the market for these dangerous fakes.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

It's pretty obvious to me at this point that these are more likely stolen. They aren't fake. As someone else mentioned earlier, this reminds me of the APMEX silver thread.

I believe you can get some decent variation of the thickness of the coin depending on how it's struck (more indentation or less). Just measure the density of the coin (which may be easier said than done), that will tell you for certain. No one fakes a coin with a higher density than gold. Seriously, how much sense does that make. The hardest point about faking a coin is to get the dimensions right (aside from the billions you're going to have to invest in tooling to get something as close as what this appears to be) and someone is going to make something more dense rather than toss a few cents of silver or copper in to get the density perfect?

Get the assay test done and it's going to come back 24ct.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I've already called a few dealers, and everyone knows about this now anyway. These guys have been burning it up, taking these coins everywhere. And their appearance doesn't exactly put anyone at ease.

You're missing the simple economics of this picture:

• we will not buy any more of the coins unless they are in fact gold.
• if the coins do contain gold of some fineness, we will pay far less than the melt value of that material, thus creating a LOSS for the counterfeiter
• the counterfeiter will not continue to make these coins if he takes a loss

And frankly, I'd be doing collectors like you a favor. One poster stated that this coin would likely have passed a Fisch tester - what if it would've? What if these coins ended up on shelves? If I buy them all, they'll get melted and the maker will lose his money and pursue something else. Get off your high horse.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Thanks for your post. Again, 22K acid will not melt fine gold, or even .9167. There should be zero reaction. We use this acid test daily with accurate results. And when I have used acid against known quantities (fractionals and PAMP bars), the acid does not do anything at all to the sample. It shouldn't.

However, I am certainly interested in the results of the assay.


Question for you and others in the know - when coin books or websites give thickness specs, are they talking about thickness from the very highest point, or, the thickness of the flat areas on which there is no indentation?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

God help us all if these hit ebay.... I could make a killing if I were these guys. You would get FULL MARKET PRICE for those.

Maybe they are testing to see just how good their fakes look under serious scrutiny? If they can get it past scrappers they sure as hell can get it past John Q. Public.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Hm... I will re-measure tonight then, and post a picture if I get a different result. These coins do not have a very high relief at all though.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

That is certainly a viable theory, but you would have to see these people... very trashy, redneck, suspicious looking. Not sophisticated in the least bit.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

i dont think he was worried about the thugs listing on ebay...more likely the burned dealers not knowing how to recoup their money on their faulty purchase...they might be enticed for ebay.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'd think the best way to verify a coin (Au) is by the known dimensions, if a counterfeit Au coin was plated in 24k, wouldn't it test positive with 24k acid?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

This whole business seems trashy to me, and after reading your post, sorry, but so do you. Seems like you're some half-got it together person taking advantage of the recent price spikes in gold, and you don't know what the hell you're doing. probably real gold and you lack the tools and sophistication to tell. You seem like one of those slimy pawn shop owners or bail bondsman to me. i think thread is beneath Gold is money, but recently, actually this post fits in fine with the product we're delivering. When will the old Gold id money return with serious analysis on the market and serious commentary?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Depends on the thickness of the plating and the strength with which you bear down on the piece when you're "scratching" a sample onto the testing surface.

That was why I filed so far into the coin, so I could get a sample from well inside it. So the sample I took was definitely past any plating, no matter how thick.

This is why I am confident the coins are gold, just definitely not 24K.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Do those who have taken the time to post thoughtful, sensible comments here some favors:

1. use proper grammar
2. spell check
3. actually read all posts of a thread before you jump in and make a complete ass of yourself, so you can get the facts (if those interest you)
4. don't use a poorly worded, childlike, ridiculous post with no factual basis as a vehicle in which to lament how bad GIM has gotten

And by the way, dumbass, I have repeatedly said that I DO think they are gold. That is why I bought two of them. RTFP.

Thanks.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Have you had a chance to calculate the density of the coins? I'm curious to know if it would support the results of the acid.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Skeptic, what kind of assay are you getting, spectrographic, or a wet assay?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

It'll be interesting to know the outcome, report back and tell us, it's hard for me to beleive that someone would go to the expense,time and risk to counterfeit a 24K coin with 18k or some lesser percentage of gold

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Hey Skeptic, did you ever get around to checking out that video with the specific gravity scale? If you could check specific gravity along with weight and dimensions, I don't think anybody ever could fool you with any metals.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Agree. This thread is really tipping off my BS meter.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

this wouldn't be GIM without a conspiracy

maybe this is a gov official who is deliberately making us think twice about buying pm's :dontknow::biggrin:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I was just getting ready to post the following when I read your comment:

Suppose that the Treasury Department and its enforcement arm is well aware of the many fake US coins (both silver and gold) that are making an increasing appearance in the market. Now, suppose that they are doing nothing to prosecute the importers and sellers because TPTB want to cause as much consternation as possible among collecters and other holders of PMs.
If that supposition has any validity it is because ZOG takes a dim view of people looking out for themselves. They need us a lot worse than we need them.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

:111:

Guys, I started a thread here which approaches 10 pages, advocating that people buy as many PMs as they can in the form of scrap, which they can then have refined - the end effect is that people can stock up on PMs way cheaper than they could just buying bullion straight out.


oboshoe,

Counterfeits exist. Good ones. It sucks and I don't like it any more than the next guy. Accept the reality.



Will catch up on the rest tomorrow.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yes. Lets talk reality.

In what reality does a counterfeiter:

A) Spend thousands to precisely duplicate a gold coin
B) Use *REAL* Gold
C) Risk Secret Service attention by counterfeiting foreign currency
D) Under Carat said coins by reducing gold content by a mere 1/4
E) Sell coins for less than 1/2 of melt value

What criminals would be so clever to ingeniously design, counterfeit and produce these coins, yet so stupid that they don't know they are losing 75% of each and every sale?

Two possible conclusions:

1) They are real and stolen
2) We are being trolled.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

You make a compelling and irrefutable case. So, I must ask: if the OP is trolling, to what end?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The third possibility is that the OP is being setup for a scam or crime of a larger nature.

They already have him thinking of completing a larger transaction.

The old adage "You can't cheat an honest man" applies here.

Quote:
"That will conceivably give us a hefty profit while at the same time getting these things out of circulation."

The OP is seeing dollar signs, and is rationalizing that he will be helping us all by taking from either incredibly moronic counterfeiters, or outright thieves.

Heck all he has to do is cheat those silly counterfeiters, make a bundle and then collect the good citizen of the year award! What could go wrong?

Conmen *THRIVE* on this kind of thinking from their victims.

If its just trolling? Well..trolls troll because trolling is what they do.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

In what reality does 24k gold get eaten by 22k test acid?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yeah, all this angst and confusion over the legitimacy of some meth heads coins is kinda strange. :biggrin:

If they test as gold and the dimensions are correct (of course it could made 100% with the addition of a specific gravity test), what it really comes down to is the rationalizing of buying stolen goods.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Or the other 45 don't exist. But you show up to the deal with $45k and get a crowbar to the back of the head.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I did look into some specific gravity addons for scales, but never really pursued it. With 99% of the stuff we buy, there is very little if any question, so I didn't want add more equipment. It is probably something I am going to continue looking into, but maybe just get for our office on occasions like this, instead of having the kits everywhere we're buying gold.

I am going to ask for a fire assay.

This is an overly simplistic analysis.

A) Does this not happen every day?

B) I bought a double eagle and took it to two coin experts (they had PCGS certificates, anyway). Both said that the content of the coin was in fact .9167, but the coin itself was counterfeit. Had it been real, it would've had decent numi value.

C) Um, as opposed to 10x more intense SS attention by counterfeiting US currency?

D) A "mere" 1/4? Let's say they only produced 500 coins. At current spot, that's about a different of $115,000. Or let's go with half that.$57,500.


Perhaps I should be honored by your presence in this thread, but please, do me the simple courtesy of reading all the posts (can we change the definition of "troll" to: jackass who inserts his opinion without actually reading very much of the thread first?). I have openly stated how little sense this makes, but I can tell you one thing for certain - acid does not lie.

Of course, I guess I'm just making up the results of the acid test, since I am a government shill who has otherwise spent most of my posts talking about the scrap gold business, and encouraging people to buy twice as much gold for half as much money.

Since you're too good (or, perhaps, just too lazy) to read earlier posts, let me recap the OTHER possibilities:

• the coins are in fact counterfeit, but were stolen from the counterfeiter
• these people are selling for the counterfeiter, but they don't care about margins because the bullion used to make the coins was stolen
• the coins were stolen from a collector who thought they were real
• (very possible) the counterfeiter fully intended to sell the coins at full spot value, but after realizing that people were catching them, decided to cut their losses and get what he could for them

There are probably more possibilities, but those alone are enough.


And since you agree with the poster who so eloquently made a case for why I am conning you guys, what do you think I am making up?

• the circumference?
• the thickness?
• the weight?
• the CLEAR and ABSOLUTE results of the acid test?
• the physical characteristics and appearance of the coin?

Some of you are so paranoid and desperate to believe in conspiracies that you make yourself look like fools. Now, because someone posts something you don't agree with, don't like, or don't understand, they are on the government's payroll. Grow the f*ck up.

Oh, and bitch about my logic all you want - but let's see what you say if one of these showed up at your local coin dealer. Hypocrite. I would not be buying them to do anyone a favor, but I mostly certainly would accomplish that...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I think it's a little more than that, you know this. :biggrin: Imagine how far the level of sophistication could go as gold becomes even more popular.

Testing as gold is an entirely different ballgame than testing as 24K gold. :wink:

Personally I think that the fact the thickness is off is telling. But I will definitely post the results of the assay...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Bump. Are you just assaying or also selling to the refiner?

I don't know how you're going about this process, but if need be, make note for the refiner not to admix the suspect gold with any other 10k or 14k gold.

Please post your assay results when you receive them.

This entire matter is most curious and somewhat bizarre.

And correct me if I'm wrong, but you've encountered both counterfeit Phils and Maples?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

If it's 24 karat, you should be able to easily scratch it.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

just hurry up and stop arguing.....post the end result, what did the assay say?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Mail one of the counterfeits to Numismatic News so they can investigate and run a story on it.

http://www.numismaticnews.net/contact/

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I agree with the poster that it's hard to believe these guys would knowingly sell at a loss.

If the thickness is off: I have to wonder how much gold shell there is on that tungsten/lead slug you bought?

You do this for a living, so it seems like you aren't likely to be naive on this, but I'm wondering if they couldn't have pulled a fast one by exploiting an assumption you may have made. IE: slugs can be a little bit star shaped, so if you cut in to a corner, your odds of finding the true ammount of slug is reduced.

I don't know if the secret service pays a bounty or not: but they may just be selling to you at a loss, just to turn you in to the SS. It could have been arranged by the secret service as entrapment. Bitter customer. Ect.

The specific gravity scale sounds like a worthwhile investment. Local manufacturing companies try to shoot for a 6 month time frame for an investment in productivity to pay for itself. That's really a business/individual preference specific variable though.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Isn't it too early to have an assay performed? In your other thread you mentioned "in our state, we have to hold the gold 30 days before doing anything with it."

Can you be more specific on the terms of that law?

Maybe these counterfeit Philharmonics and Maple Leaves, if they indeed exist, are the new incarnation of the gold missing from the Royal Canadian Mint.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Doubt it would take billions. They don't necessarily have to reverse engineer the surface and CNC EDM/mill a striking die from tool steel with small ball mills.
^ Expensive equipment intensive(however there are plenty of machine shops that are hurting for jobs right now/employees with access to their tools)

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

HI,


OK here is a a simple Brain dump.

If the coin is thinner and same diameter, then the metal is denser than gold. Doesn't sound right. If it is thinner and 750 pure, then is should weigh less. The only way this would work, is to alloy a denser metal with gold. This would make it thinner but weight the same.

Acids could have gone bad. What type of acid are you using. I'm assuming nitirc acid. Nitric shouldn't disolve the gold, but the other base metals in the mix. Not sure about it disolving other noble metals except silver.


I know that HCL plus tin makes stannous chloride. This will tell you if it is actuall gold. The problem that you need to disolve a little of the metal, then add the solution above.

Also if the coin is pure (99.9%), a drop of HCL will not create green or blue looking acid. Any color change of the acid to green/blue is an indication of a non-pure metal. If it's pure, a drop of HCL should stay clear.

You can try new set of acids? Maybe the acids have been concentrated (evaporation, etc) and are stronger that usual. Thus disolving a higher purity metal?


I'm assuming you hit it with a magnet?

Take a high def picture of the coin. Get another one from well known online sources. Use photoshop to overlay the images, and check for differences.

Other than that, you are left with an assay.

Good luck and keep us informed

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

It just doesn't match.

If they are thinner than the official specifications, the same diameter, and still weight troy 1oz, it can't be a fake 18 carat gold.

1) The thickness specification is imprecise, because it depends where you mesure it, the field is uneven on a coin because of the relief caused by striking it.

2) If it was 18K gold, and still weight 1 troy oz and mesure 37 mm, it would need to be thicker, not thinner, in order to be still 37 mm and 1 oz.

So the typically 18K yellow gold alloy contains 18 parts of gold and 6 parts of copper, it will need to be 2.65mm to still be 37.0 mm and 1 troy oz. For other alloy, it varies, but its similar (silver/gold alloy makes it 2.26mm, and there's not a lot of things heavier than silver to make a 18K alloy)

3) The surface of the coin can contain impurities (somewhat common, see with 'red spots' maples), and an acid test could be inaccurate. The .9999 specifications for coins refer to the material under the surface.

My assessment: This is a real, but stolen, 24 carat gold coin. Your acid tests are misleading.

Another thing you can see: try scratching it, and see how easy it is compared to other 18k gold. It should be much softer

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Occams Razor, maybe there is a mistake in one of the assumptions?

Misscalculation? incorrect input?

How can it be possible for multiple people at multiple locations to start introducing gold coins that are thinner than the actual coin, weigh the same, but be of 18ct gold. Too many Statistical outliners needed to make it plausible.

Not saying your lying, but something in the data is wrong, skewing the results.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yes, before we sell either one, we are having one of them assayed separately. Though I was thinking about it, and I guess a fire assay would not be very practical for just one piece. I will leave the method up to them.

On the Maple I was talking about, I did not take any measurements. I can remember that it seemed much thicker than this coin, though. I did not follow up any further with the guys that ended up buying it, but when he saw the results of his acid test were the same as mine, he freaked out. 24K gold will simply not melt under that acid. It won't even discolor.

People have asked if the acid could be weak or be stale, however, my understanding (could be wrong) is that none of the acids can even melt .999. Also, stale or mixed acid results in a less powerful reaction (ie., 10K appears to be 14K), not the other way around.

I agree, and this is what I've been going crazy trying to figure out.

:biggrin: Hopefully not so much that we can't recoup a little real gold out of this thing?

I think you have a very valid point. I actually wanted to file the first coin right in half, but didn't take the time to do it. The guys we are taking it to have a lot of tools for things like this, so that is going to be a first step. I definitely want to see what's in the dead center even before it goes to be assayed.

Turn us into SS for what? We have advised everyone (4 separate groups now) that the coins are counterfeit and that we are not buying them as coins, and that they would be destroyed. Yesterday, I even got a phone call to the number on our business cards about these, and I advised the person that they had counterfeit European currency, and that it would be a crime for her to try to pass them as real coins to any buyer.

It isn't expensive to get the kit, that is not really my issue. It is just that we already have a lot of ways to test, and this is basically the first time we've ever wanted to assay anything specific. For 99% of our transactions, the added equipment/space/time/etc wouldn't be practical. Like I said, if we open an office, I would probably put one in there. But between the tents and the two mall spots (about to be 3), on any given day we are often buying gold at 5 or 6 locations.

So long as we can get the coin back after an assay, I am not really breaking the law, though I can't be honest and say that the police would like us losing custody of the piece even temporarily.

Yes, one of the only scenarios that makes sense if they are counterfeit (of which I am 99% certain) is that the bullion used to make them was stolen.

Thanks for your post.

You're right. I have been thinking about this and it is making me nervous. The metal did hold up indefinitely (about 5 minutes, that was long enough for me) under 18K testing acid, which is a very strong indicator that it is 18K gold or possibly even higher (maybe .833-.900). However, at the speed with which it dissolved under 22K, I'd say much closer to .750.

On the other hand, there could be some weird alloy that just doesn't melt under 18K. I have seen that one other time, with a dental piece. 22K would melt it, but 18K wouldn't. It wasn't gold at all. And it was extremely heavy. However, it was also completely silver in appearance, totally unlike this metal.

Anyway, I suppose the most likely thing is that the coin is 18K with a disc (hopefully small).

See above.

Yes, it had no attraction to an 8lb magnet I used. That particular magnet has done really well, I recommend it.

I agree, it should definitely be thicker if it was 18K... unless there is some way to alloy a denser metal with .750 gold, leaving out the need for a disc? I am not a chemist or a metallurgist by any means, I leave that question up to the pros.

But what about an acid test where the sample is taken from fairly deep inside the coin?

I've noticed that this is actually a much harder scratch. The surface of the coin will barely even scratch whatsoever. I think that is because of the design of the ridges, but it's still not nearly as easy as I think it should be. But even the inside has more resistance and flaking than 18K jewelry I have tested.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

This is certainly possible. Not with the acid (chemically impossible as far as I know) or the weight (weighed twice and hard to misread a digital scale), but somewhere else.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Skeptic,

One other factor you're contending with here...each and every time gold has flirted with backwardation, we have seen an uptick in threads reporting counterfeit / fake gold coins. This is a means used by the currency manipulators to dampen demand for physical gold.

Gold began its most recent flirt with backwardation about 10 days ago, and from what I can see on Bloomberg TV today's action seems to show spot (physical) price leading the futures price upwards.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I know, the billions part was a bit of sarcasm. The die is still going to be fairly expensive I suspect (seems like 10-20k for sure). There are always people willing to sell out, but I don't think if I was desperate for work, I'd take a job counterfeiting coins to pay the bill (maybe some schmuck working in his basement can do this but seems unlikely). It looks to me like the coin is pretty on.

The point I was really trying to make is, there are too many things wrong. If we believe the original poster, he's got a coin here that's 18 ct gold and 7% more dense than gold (I'm quoting another poster on the 7% as I didn't do the math). Ok, so the story goes something like this:

1) make perfect dies

2) make some alloy at 18ct. Now unlike normal 18ct. alloys which are much less dense than gold, ours is more dense than gold (keeping in mind, getting the density of gold is the hard part so maybe we mixed in too much platinum to further drive up our unprofitable venture here).

3) Now, before we can sell said coins, we get ripped off and someone steals them and sells them to this person

or

3) We feel the heat, and for some reason rather than deciding to melt these into slugs, and sell em to the refiner, we decide to sell at a huge loss.

or

3) This whole master counterfeiting plan relied on stolen gold to begin with, so rather than just selling stolen gold, we decided it would be a much better idea to start a trail and to hire out some machinist to make the dies so we could make the counterfeits so we could peddle the counterfeits and not get caught.

No offense to the original poster, but I don't buy it. I think the suggestion a few posts back about sending them to a coin publication are a good one. If you want me to believe this, send them to the coin publication and have them run a story. Right now, we have someone on the internet telling us how infallible he is. He has run across a perfectly made coin that has a magic 18ct mixture that is more dense than gold when the other possibility is the acid test screwed up and he mis-measured the coins (assuming he isn't lying).

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

In a few hours I hope to have one cut in half. Will snap some photos if there is anything interesting there (like a disc!).


Bob,

That acid will not melt 24K gold. That is as sure as the fact that I can't jump off a roof and expect to fly.

Regarding the density, it has been pointed out and makes sense that there is probably some kind of super dense disc at the core. This would explain the lack of thickness versus the lower purity gold.

I'm thinking of making a video of the coin being weighed, measured, and acid tested.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

If someone has the sophistication to counterfeited a 24 ct gold coin with a disk in the center, do you think they will

a) "plate" it with 18 ct gold
b) "plate" it with 24 ct gold


I understand the acid test is supposed to have no effect on 24 ct gold also. But, as far as the flying part, we have had people on this board (one from the Philipines was recently banned who had ESP and talked to himself) who would probably claim they could fly.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I don't know anything about melting metal to form alloys, but would if be possible to melt stolen very cheaply purchased 18k gold jewelry and melt it and use it cast these objects? I can see where they would be trying to gauge the quality of the copy by running it past pro scrappers, then once they are feeling about about the quality sell in bulk. They could sell though e-bay, craigslist, coin shop, or anywhere for that matter, and sell for market value of the coin, not stolen 18K scrap price.

Or gold the mint really be shipping 18K coins from day one? I HIGHLY DOUBT that, but what a scam that would be??? Does anyone know someone who has personally sent out a phil that shipped from the mint or other quality dealer and then taken it out for assay?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Pyle,
Cast copies have distinguishing surface characteristics. A convincing fake is made the way the real ones are.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Had to SORRY!!!
TOO FUNNY

http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/s...d.php?t=388355

On subject - Perhaps these fakes are made in China like the Fake Morgans?
Just a thought. Some of those Morgans were quite convincing.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

@Skeptic,

I imagine you know that buying stolen property is illegal. If you're caught, you can not only face criminal charges, but of course any money you received will be taken back. What you may not know is that you can get into deep shit even if you just suspect the property is stolen, and don't know for sure.

Another thing you may not be aware of is that this is a typical ploy criminals use to get leverage over people: they sell you something stolen, particularly when they know you have a good chance of re-selling it. Then, later on they threaten to turn you in to the police if you don't go along with them in some way (such as buying/fencing more stuff).

For your sake, I hope your markup is high enough to cover the resulting legal fees and time lost due to police entanglements. If it was me, I would do everything I could to avoid even being around people like that, much less doing business with them.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I personally consider this the most likely scenerior. American criminals are mostly dopes. All the good shit are "crime-in-a-box" kits imported by organized crime as far as I can tell.

Anyone ever heard of "DiVinci Stereo's"?

http://www.ripoffreport.com/searchre...=&q6=&start=10

Where the hell are these con artists buying these things to resell?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

You're right. Cast was a poor choice of words. I'm just not sure how coins are stamped and what sort of equipment is required. My thinking was if someone melted 18K jewelry and processed it in a similar manor with how real coins are produced, would it appear the same? I'm wondering if the color would be off or if the melted jewelry would otherwise appear different even prior to imprinting. Sort of a way to compare the inside.

My question is if the assay comes back as 18K and proves the acid test correct could these fakes from scrap melt? That would be a great way to improve the value of the scrap, but very illegal.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Here's Oregon:
It's a misdemenor AFIAK.

I'd be more concerned about the possession of counterfeit money. The regardless of how you came in to possession of it is the concerning part.

As far as turning stolen gold in to counterfeits: that's a bit hard to swallow for me simply because krugarands or chinese zodiac coins are bullion so are a legally superior choice if you're just looking to flip coins.

The only reason to counterfeit a philharmonic or maple is if you don't want the coin to be scrutinized because of the false sense of security the secret service provides. The only reason to do so is because the gold content is less than is marked on the coin.

This is a lower margin scam than faking numismatics, but it's less risky since numismatics have significantly higher scrutiny.

There's only one reason these coins would be fake: slugs.

Actually: I lied.

Decoy safes. Some people hide a big safe in plain sight as a decoy for thieves. Such a person(like a coin collector/dealer) may load said decoy safe with bad counterfeits in order to have the thief apprehended. Such a person is relying on the scrap gold vendor to do the right thing and contact the Secret Service.

I suggest Skeptic continues the assay/investigation, and sets up a meeting time to buy the rest of the lot.("I don't have enough cash on me.")

Tell the cops some shady people have been trying to sell you counterfeit coins and that you don't want retaliation, but that you have a meeting place set up. If you're lucky, you may get witness protection.

Alternatively to calling the cops: you could set up the meeting, tell them they're fakes and you're not interested, (don't have the cash on you) and take down their license plate.

Call the cops in a couple months(give the perps time to forget about you.) and tell them the license plate is involved in burglary's or a counterfeiting ring.

They follow these clowns for a couple weeks, they'll probably take down the counterfeiter/burglar, and a meth dealer.

Community service.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Except for the fact that 18 ct jewelry gold is going to have either the wrong dimensions or weight.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Sounds like high quality Chinese fakes have hit the Philharmonics and Maples now. Nobody is going to be able to buy any PMs without a scale, calipers, and an acid test kit thanks to the dang Chinese.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Lot of stuff transpired today. I'm cooking dinner right now and will elaborate later, but here's some meat for those who think I'm making this shit up (you'll really like this):

- an assay confirmed that the coins are just over 90% gold (I don't have the names or amount of other metals yet)
- there was no disc (however, after cutting the coin in half, it is obvious that it is comprised of a thick outer plating and then some other metal)
- the police have just confiscated the ones we bought, they are confirmed stolen from some sucker who apparently thought they were real in the first place


Chew on that.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Sounds like it would've passed the Fisch as well as anybody checking with caliper and scale and allowing for very minor variation. These new counterfeits are really really good. Time to invest in an acid test kit.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

So here's what we know. The coins are stolen. The hoodlums stole what they thought was legit coins from some guy and passed them off to you as genuine.

I'm still having trouble understanding the reasoning behind someone counterfitting a 100% bullion coin and making a 90% gold bullion coin instead. Especially if it has no tungsten disc in the center, just another metal different than gold. Perhaps a mixture of dense metals to create a closeness in weight, which makes the whole situation even more bizarre.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

yes it is an interesting situation. seems like an awful lot of work for the original owners / creators of these coins to at best make $95 per coin minus minting and other metal costs. but it was mentioned that the guy had 45 more so that 95 could add up quick i guess
:confused_ma:
still waiting to see the pick of the assay sheet though

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Ditto...

If this is real, to be 100% sure, you'd have to test all gold coins bought from anyone outside of the mint, even dealers.

I'm sure APMEX doesn't acid test any of the coins that passes through their hands.

So it's either damage the coin and risk any numis premiums or chance a fake.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

It is hard to tell from the pics but the edges almost look smooth. These do have reeded edges, right? I know the Silver Phils are smooth but the Gold Phils are reeded and would be sure tell if these are not.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm still absolutely baffled by this. I agree that from a monetary standpoint, unless they manufactured thousands of these, there is virtually no reason to make a .900 counterfeit of a .999.

One interesting thing - my partner did break out an untouched 24K gold coins and the color difference wasn't dramatic, but you could see some. The color of these looks more consistent with a Liberty, which we also did a direct comparison with today.

Anyway, he is the one who got the phone call about the assay results. I am 90% sure (no pun intended) that they used a fire assay on one half of the coin we brought them. I have asked to get the info on the other metal (because there can't be too many possibilities for that), but I probably won't have it until tomorrow.

The guy who cut the coin in half and examined it pointed out changes in color under a loupe, where I had just been looking for consistency without one. You could definitely see an extremely thick plating over a core of something else. He said it looked like copper, but since the density is lower, that's pretty much impossible.

I took a video on my Blackberry of the coin after it was cut in half. I'm sure the quality is poor, but I'll try to attach it tonight or tomorrow.

I did in fact email the Austrian mint. Some lady responded stating that there are no counterfeit Philharmonics. What's sad is that these have likely sat in the theft victim's safe for a long time. Who knows how many are out there. What's funny is that when the investigators came today, they apparently had no idea these were fake - and they had already been to at least two other jewelry stores/gold buyers that we know of. I don't think anyone else had caught on.

We have one that has not been filed or assayed, but we have been told to bring it to the PD tomorrow since it is now evidence. I'm going to try to take some video and photos of it being weighed and measured beforehand.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The thickness+diameter vs. weight test has always been sketch to me for the simple fact that tungsten is virtually the same density, and you can exaggerate the raised protrusions on the coin's features to make up for the difference in order to pass the thickness.

Kinda like trying to measure the thickness of a jelly doughnut to a .001 precision. Not enough information. You'll see variances of up to .050 by any criteria.

Fisch scales need a "go/no go" lid/relief similar to the striking dies themselves that will seat flush on legit coins to be worth a damn. These could be cast from epoxy due to it's zero-shrink properties.

That leaves an alloy of lead/tungsten and platinum which is cost prohibitive ATM. All the counterfeiters will be forced to stick with numismatics and 100oz silver bars/avoid people who have the proper equipment.

The status quo is pretty sloppy considering the stakes IMHO.

Not that my list of urgent projects isn't already incredibly long, but I guess I need to "Fix the Fisch" while I'm at it.

Edit:
Just saw the pictures.

I'll be damned if that isn't the prettiest counterfeit I've ever seen. Picture was so blurry I didn't bother to go upstairs and get a comparison phil+a loupe, but DAMN...

If you can do a specific gravity test that'll tell us a lot about the alloy they used to fill the coin? 18K+Yellow Slug? Wow.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I am dying to know what that other metal was too.

I know very, very little about the criminal investigation that is going on, but I fully intend to try to find out the victim's info and sit down and talk with him about these coins if I can. As far as I know, we are the only people that actually bought any. I'd love to know where he got them.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Personally, I don't believe these are the usual counterfeits - the risk/reward ratio is too high. One would have to move a huge number of these to make enough profit (~10% skim) to offset the enormous fabrication costs (that fake is perfect) and the risk of detection. A counterfeiter would sooner fake a numi with it's high premium than a bulk bullion coin which is what the Phils are.

I'm going to throw out a wild theory and welcome rebuttals. I believe these coins were produced at the mint in Austria. Someone inside figured out a way to substitute a cheaper metal for some of the gold, and to do it without being detected. This person likely knows how to evade or game the QC process, perhaps by falsifying assay results. Considering the enormous volume of gold Phils produced, a skim of 10% of the gold would be enormous. And considering how good these fakes are, this counterfeiting could be going on for years without detection. Unless someone can prove that the Austrian mint's QC is fool proof, that is the first place I would investigate as the source of the fakes.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The thickness of the fakes are 93% of the spec. When I put a real coin into the slot on a Fisch, it is real tight. No slop whatsoever.

A coin at 93% will certainly be noticable.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Good theory!


where's the pics on the assay?????

...was there a police report filed??? lets see a copy

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Now I am the skeptic.

Please post a copy of the assay.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Good thinking outside the box mamboni. The Canada mint loses 17514 ounces of gold then its plausible the Austrian mint could as well. If that theory was found true, it would turn the bullion coin world upside down. No one would know what to trust was legit.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Wow, Has anyone ever assayed a GAE? This snippet from the US Mint has me a little worried considering the track record of the .gov. Are we that greater fool? Think of other things they have 'guaranteed'

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Any sense, Skeptic, that some of what you are being brought have been busted out of these type slabs?.


Here's only part of the deal on that topic..again, thank you, Chinese.


caveat emptor

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Flood the market with quality bullion fakes, and you put fear into the market. Afterall, why would someone invest in faking quality bullion, over numismatics. If so invested. 18K bullion coins, my ass.

Fear, controls the masses. I smell a rat.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

If that's what's going on: our recourse is to clean house and make sure that our counterfeit detection is top notch, our slab seals are tamper proof, and that we treat the issue like what it is: a very high stakes game of security.

The free market has done a good job, but market forces allow for lax security just like they allow for fractional reserve lending. Vigillance is key in the security industry because we only have to slip up once.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Just a small correction: It's not the free market that 'allows' fractional reserve lending, it's government (i.e. socialized) court system.

Law suits were filled at the beginning of the 19th century against against fractional lender banks, but the judges ruled in favor of the - very politically connected - banks.

Nothing has changed, really.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Still , the mystery of how a philharmonic can be both less than 24k and thinner than 2.0 mm is still unresolved.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Is what we need is a gang of meddling kids.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Candidates with a yellow color:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yellowcake
"Lead monoxide"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_oxide
http://images.google.com/images?q=le...N&hl=en&tab=wi

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Still sounds suss, why wouldn't "they" heavily plate the coins with 24ct gold instead of 90%. They are leaving themselves open to be found out (buy you, apparently).

Would be good to see the entire coin assayed (not just half), to show total amount of 99.99 gold in the one ounce fake. Is the entire coins 90% throughout?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Basic facts stated:

Coin weighs 31.1 grams
Same diameter
Slightly thinner
Not pure

All four of these items can not be true unless you are using a heavier alloy, and all heavier alloys are more expensive.

This does not make sense.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

What if it was the Austrian mint making these

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

You'd have a megascandal! Imagine the purity of hundreds of thousands of gold bullion coins suddenly called into question. And the Austrian Mint's reputation, one of the most venerable, would be mud. It would likely trigger scrutiny of other bullion coins as well.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

We need to get all the GIMmers who have Philharmonics to acid test them with 18k acid to see if they react or not. If your theory is true, than it shouldn't be hard to collaborate this with evidence from GIMmers all over the place. I don't own a Philharmonic, but if I did, after reading this thread I'd be at my dealer to have him acid test it for me!

By the way Mamboni, I agree with you; this would not be the first time a gov't entity debased the coin of the realm. However, it is strange that they would make so many and not expect someone to eventually test it for purity, maybe it is a recent change, maybe only the Phils denominated in Euros are 90%, while previous ones are still .9999.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Well your previous theory could not be far off...I mean who would go out of their way to make a .900 version of a .999 coin.

Too much work i think. Imagine if it was indeed the Austrian mint who made these or an employee. Anything is possible

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Here is what we have left:

1) half of the first coin we bought, which has been fired
2) the second half of that coin in its "original" condition (and high res pics of the inside of this one will be very telling!)
3) a full, uncut coin that we have been told to take to the police as evidence in their investigation of the theft

No one has said anything about the first coin. But I could not prove the case with it, since it has been cut in half and people could argue the diameter measurements and weight. You can clearly see a plating when you look at it from the inside now, but people will just say that coin was likely off in its weight and/or dimensions.

The other coin we have, unfortunately, is going to get tied up in this investigation. I wonder if the Secret Service would take the time or have the interest (foreign currency) to get some of these from the police, and pursue it. If you guys think so, I will probably contact them.

The thing is that I don't trust SS. I would much rather find out who they were stolen from, tell him what I know, and offer to buy one of the coins at 90% spot. Then I could send it untouched to some kind of journal, who would hopefully reimburse me for the coin and what would surely be a very good story.

When we go give the PD the intact coin, I'm sure we'll get an evidence receipt. Maybe I can post a copy of that, we'll see.

I just called and was told that because they did a quick assay, they were just looking for gold, and I don't think a report on the other metals was issued. But the good news is that there are still chances for one to be done on one or more of these coins.

I understand that many are reluctant to believe an anonymous poster on a forum. But if you read about this from a known and trusted source, maybe you'll believe it then...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

More fuel for the Drama fire; I just received this email back after my inquiry to the Austrian Mint...



Dear Sir,

If the 1 oz coin has a weight of only 18 karat gold, it is not a Gold Philarmonic coin. The Fine weight of the coin is desicive. (31,103 g)
The thickness is within the tolerance.



Best regards
Johann Hanslmaier
Direct Marketing

M�NZE �STERREICH AG
AM HEUMARKT 1 * 1031 WIEN * �STERREICH * POSTFACH 181
TELEFON +43 1 717 15-165 *
johann.hanslmaier@Austrian-Mint.at * www.austrian-mint.at

Firmenbuch Nr. FN 55543g, Handelsgericht Wien, UID-Nr.: ATU 37114706, ARA-Nr.: 7352, DVR: 0558826
-----Urspr�ngliche Nachricht-----
Von:
Gesendet: Sonntag, 19. Juli 2009 19:32
An: Abteilung Marketing
Betreff: 1 Oz Gold Philharmonic coin

I'd inquired as to the specifications, IF a 1.86mm coin thickness would be allowable, apparently it is.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

If anyone's interested, here is a very short video clip I took of the coin after it was cut in half. Pretty crappy quality and not very helpful, but blame Blackberry. :)

You will have to change the .mp3 extension to .3gp to get it to play. Quicktime Player will play this format (with sound), so will VLC Media Player (but with no sound for some reason)


Also - the fake Maple Leaf I posted about... I followed up yesterday, and found out that the guys who bought it located the woman and got their money back after they saw the results of the acid test. These guys have been buying gold for years. I'm telling you, acid doesn't lie. :wink:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Interesting. Here is my conversation with the Mint to date:

Their response:

My response:


No response yet.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I dont recall 1 oz Phils to be that thin. The video shows an awful thin coin

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Skeptic quotes virtual perfect specs to the Austrian Mint rep and her response is:

date Mon, Jul 20, 2009 at 11:01 AM
subject Philharmonics

Dear Mr. X:

Hmmm, ......since there are no counterfeit Philharmonics anywhere, our first question to you is why do you suspect that these are counterfeit? In other words why did you first think this?

Thank you,

Kirsten Petersen
Director
International Markets
Austrian Mint


This woman should be listed under the dictionary definition of OBTUSE! The coins is gold, looks perfect, measures near perfect, and she doesn't understand why he suspects a counterfeit? Sometimes I think the entire Western world has dropped about 40 IQ points.:banghead:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Skeptic, are these 2009 Philharmonics?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Post #145...short answer....yes

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I saw that. I am asking Skeptic because he said these are 2009 coins and yet I read this quote from him on page 3 post #119:

"I did in fact email the Austrian mint. Some lady responded stating that there are no counterfeit Philharmonics. What's sad is that these have likely sat in the theft victim's safe for a long time. Who knows how many are out there. What's funny is that when the investigators came today, they apparently had no idea these were fake - and they had already been to at least two other jewelry stores/gold buyers that we know of. I don't think anyone else had caught on."

So are they 2009 coins or are they old?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

They are 2009.

What is the earliest he could've ordered some 2009s?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

So what do you consider a "long time"?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

To me, even a few months is a long time to possess counterfeit coins.

Couldn't he have bought these sometime late 2008?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm going to amend my opinion presented earlier in this thread. I think we're getting played here. Post some cold hard proof! Police report, assay results, etc. Not emails, not conversations you had with so and so, not what the assayer told you. I've seen this sort of thing happen before... Someone spins a story, and sees how long they can get sympathy or the board all riled up. You've been here 1.5 months and managed to post your 30% spot thread and now this.

You claim you have a mystery 75-90% alloy that is magically more dense than gold. The fake is perfect in appearance, and everything else. Earlier you said it'd take a week for the assay results, now you got it overnight, but you only know it's 90%.... Blah blah blah...

Post some proof!

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

• The coins were not stolen from us, thus I cannot just march into the PD and demand a copy of the report, or documents relating to the investigation. What we CAN get is a receipt when we surrender the evidence, which I will post.
• At first I was told that the assay would come back in 3 to 4 days. But when we took this coin in, staff was pretty amazed by it and we were given the option of a quick assay to determine purity after the coin was cut in half. We took the quick option and left the other half in case we wanted to do a full assay. My understanding was that even with a quick assay, we would be able to know the other metal. The guy who faciliated all this is out of town today, but apparently I was wrong about getting to know the other metal content unless we do a complete assay on the other half. Right now that is going to be very difficult, since the PD wants everything we bought. I am going to see if I can somehow retain the filed/cut up/fired coin but that is up in the air.
• This process is going to take some time. I am going to take some more photos today, but I have other things to be doing, and there are also other people involved (police, assayer, the rightful owner).
• And when I post an assay certificate, then what? You'll just say it's not from the same coin. It could be from anything. Until this is published by a respected publication, hardly anyone will believe me - but I don't have a problem with that. My name is, after all, "The Skeptic."
• What is the point of me trying to make all this up? Wait, I've got it - I have delusions of grandeur in which I single-handedly destroy the market for bullion! :ARMS1:
• It's 35%. :wink:

The bottom line is this -

It will probably take a couple of weeks to get all the info and see how this thing plays out. Think what you will in the meantime. I have no reason to waste a bunch of my time making this up. I am fascinated by these coins and want to get to the bottom of this. But when you have cops and other parties involved, things get slowed down.

I will look for all the proof I can and post it as I get it. Yet at the same time, it is not suddenly my life's mission to keep you guys up to speed (no offense :biggrin:) on this.

I will also try to obtain the ultimate proof - an untouched coin from this collection (perhaps I can buy one from the owner) and send it to someone you will believe, such as a publication.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Just curious, if I am in fact able to buy one or more of these coins from the person they were stolen from -

Anyone interested in buying them at 90% spot? I'm gaming you, right? They're real! So that's a free 1/10 ozt of gold...

:wink:

Didn't think so.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I don't see any proof. All I see is the list of excuses as to why this is going to take longer. The guy is out of town, the cops want the rest, etc. I reiterate: post some proof.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I will, when I get it. RTFP.

Or better yet, buy one of the coins if I can obtain some from the owner. Put your money where your mouth is. We'll go through Escrow.com.


Edit: I'll even pay for shipping.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I find it quite surprising that the local police haven't already notified the Secret Service or the FBI. They punt the ball on these matters quite quickly.

So....Which local Police department did you say is investigating this?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I have purposely not revealed what cities we are operating in in other threads, and I won't do it here. With the amount of information I have given out about business operations, amount of gold we buy, financials, etc., I don't think it's wise. I value privacy as much as anyone else.

And I think you may misunderstand the nature of the investigation. These coins, and apparently a lot of other bullion, were stolen from someone. The PD is not investigating counterfeiting; it is investigating burglary and theft.

My understanding is that the PD had not heard they were counterfeit until yesterday, when they came to see us and my partner told them. I wasn't there. But right now, that is about the last thing on their mind, as they are still trying to catch everyone involved in the theft.



Still no takers if I can get some of these "real" coins? Come on - Escrow.com, no premium, 90% spot, no shipping!

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Being these are part of a criminal theft investigation locally and possibly an international counterfeiting crime possibly involving the Austrian gov, there in no way.....no way you are going to be able to obtain one of these for resale.

Your story has holes in it. I mean scientific theory alone one would think you would have done testing on a known "good coin" to develop a bench mark before you emailed the Austrian gov claiming you have a .900 counterfeit coin. That is a bold claim to make to a .gov body with a simple acid test and a fire assay that you can't produce.....

This whole thread smells like the silver thread a few months back.....

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I thought .999 WAS the benchmark. Is 10% short within "tolerance level" for these coins?

I trust the person who gave me the results of the assay. I don't expect you to, since you don't know anything about the company or the people we are dealing with. I have also looked at the inside of one of these with a 16X loupe. Trust me, that ended the debate for me once and for all.

The "story" doesn't have holes in it. It just has claims that I cannot 100% prove unless you are standing there watching. I don't blame you for skepticism, but like I said, I cannot wave a magic wand and suddenly align the stars to produce the incontrovertible proof. It will take time.

And even if I do a formal assay of the other half of the coin and post the results, that will be questioned. People will say it wasn't from the same coin.

I do stand a chance of obtaining one. First of all, if the counterfeit card isn't given much weight, the PD will just give the coins back to the owner, and possibly very soon if the guys decide to plead guilty. From that point, I don't think he would have any problems selling me a couple, especially given the fact that I can show him physical proof that they were counterfeit. It's just a matter of getting his contact information.

Now, if the SS and the Austrian government gets involved, it will be a different story, yes. But by virtue of your statement, you acknowledge that there is a possibility I'm telling the truth, right? :wink:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I think it's much more likely that some Chinese company would make a high quality replica (which as I understand isn't even illegal there and is very common) over thinking someone at a government mint somehow can modify the entire production process without being detected to generate fakes redesigned to correct specs but with 10% less gold.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Why would anyone knowingly purchase stolen and counterfeit coins?

Yes. Good idea about keeping your city secret. Gold buying operations are so incredibly rare and unique.

So...The local PD has been informed that the coins are counterfeit currency, yet they are still doing their own investigation eh?


I kindly suggest that you puts some more spin on this tale. Its getting shaky again.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

**********

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Nah. There is no manipulation being attempted here. Its just an old fashioned tall tale that serves no other purpose than to entertain the person telling it.

I doubt this major gold buying operation even exists.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

oboshoe,

So I guess if I give you the local PD's phone number, they will be glad to divulge everything they know about an open investigation over the phone, right?

They are doing an investigation into THEFT of the coins. Whether they are counterfeit or not, they were STOLEN. They cannot just drop that case, even if they think they are counterfeit. And to top it all off, this just transpired yesterday - far too early for me to know what calls were placed or who is in the works at other agencies.

Some of you people have the reading comprehension and deductive reasoning of a six year old.

:banghead:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The problem I have with this thread is it is attempting to cast a dark shadow on the trustworthiness of bullion gold coins on a internationally popular website that is devoted to all things gold, and then because of privacy concerns and other circumstances, we can't really resolve it.

This story doesn't add up to me. The coin is undersized and underkarated, yet the coin is the correct weight...that doesn't cut it. It would have to be alloyed with a metal heavier than gold...what metal could that be?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Like I said, my offer still stands. Assuming I can buy some of these, any takers?

Anyone willing to put some money where their mouth is?


Now, I'm off to a 2 1/2 hour dental appointment!

:(

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I told you guys, I will post as much proof as I can, as it comes to me. There are other parties involved now, and this is not as simple as it used to be. I do not expect anyone to be calling the Mint demanding answers based on what evidence already exists in this thread.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't believe purchasing one of these alleged coins would be illegal if they're not being sold as real. You can posses a counterfeit coin as long as you don't attempt to pass it as the real thing (for instance, the Henning nickels are sold on eBay all the time). That being said, I would be interested in purchasing a fake like this for melt value if I had the disposable funds (which I don't).

I still believe we are being played here. A copy of an assay result showing the exact composition would go a long way to convince me. Hell, I'd love to see a nice scan of said half a coin, not the blurry pics.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm just curious what agency the SS and FBI have outsourced their counterfeiting investigations too. Must be one hell of a dept.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

This is easily one of the best threads on GIM in months. If you don't believe it good for you, but getting the occasional thread like this is why I bother wading through the other 98% of crap threads on here.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yours is sad commentary on the decline in quality of threads here at GIM in the last few months. Not that this thread isn't interesting. But, in the old days it would be an also-ran at best. The old time posters started a lot more threads on silver, gold, macroeconomics and other heady stuff. I suspect they been discouraged from posting by all the nitt-picking and contentiousness.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

As I said before this guy is a complete corn-pone hack, i figured you guys would figure it out sooner than later. My best guess is that he's trying to come of with a scam himself, and using you guys and your info to help him avoid detection (casing), seeing how much you know, how to scam the people who really know what's up with buillion coins. A two bit hustler, or liar or worst. You guys are being played fellas. My guess he'll have to change identities unless he can come up with the documents you guys are requesting. But I guess he can fake those if you give him enough time. Don't feed or play with trolls, the little ****2rs stink something fierce. Kill this troll now!!!!

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

************

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Yeah,

now those guy is off to a two hour dental appointment. Probably won't hear from him again, unless he can come up with some fake docs. Thou protests too much! What a loser troll. GIM is on his Azz however, and I do indeed appreciate the bloodhound approach guys. keep it up!

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm willing to bite. How do I get one of these coins, and get the money to you? Let's do it. I had my dental appt yesterday, so I'm free. please however seen my a pic or a scan of the coin first. Preferably on your scale, with weight read out, just so we're on the same page. I don't mind taking one of the coins you've cut open, actually that's preferable. i don't mind taking the hit. We should get to the bottom of this, any PM investor would want to know about this potential scam. Thanks in advance.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

**************

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

In the early days of GIM, gold was under $300 and silver was under $5, mining stocks were coming alive after 30 years, oil was moving strong...the whole commodity sector was where the action was. Then came the big correction and economic turmoil.

There has been a lot of reality in the last 2 years. Not too many people are so confident about playing the markets or their analysis of the market ...silver went up, crashed and has recovered a little...but it hasn't been exciting. Physical bullion gold is about the only thing that has provided safety...oh yeah, you can't even trust gold bullion government coins. :wink:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Too much flaming going on in this thread...do people just enjoy doing that I wonder. Yes the guy hasnt produced much proof but that is not to say he is not telling the truth.

If you all are so sure that the man is BSing then you must be sleeping in the same bed with him.

I say this...if you think the man is full of it then go somehwere else and stop flaming. It is not constructive, does not clarify a discussion, and does not persuade others.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

If he comes up with proof, I will gladly apologize. My reason for bluntly calling him on a lack of proof was because it is my sincere belief that we are being played, and the quickest way to end that is to call someone on it. We had a similar silver post in the past. In that case, the gent obviously was sincere, but had messed up and the silver coins were in fact genuine and pure (as APMEX proved).

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm sure there will be plenty of people willing to buy a gold Phil at 90%. The fact that the counterfeit nature of the coin is alleged and not believed to be true seems to me to be a loop hole to what could possibly be a SS sting.

However that is a tangent and completely irrelevant because it is unlikely you'll ever be able to find another one of these coins.

Either do a water displacement test of the remaining half and post an accurate and precise specific gravity; cut it in to quaters and have the assayer determine what exactly the alloy this thing is filled with is; Post the precise gold content from the assayer; or PM me the police department's phone number and I'll verify the existence of such an investigation.

Any of the above would satify me, but your credibility will be shot if under any circumstances you relinguish possession of a sample of the filler alloy.

This is a matter of importance way beyond a simple burglary, and surrending all specimen of the magic alloy would be a travesty.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Well guys I am back from what in fact turned out to be 3 hour dental appointment. Takes a while to have your teeth cleaned, a crown casted, and to sort out all the billing.

If you like, I can upload a scan of the $800+ bill, which I had to pay most of in cash since Barry is ineligible to be President and thus can't come up with a way for the taxpayers to foot my dental bills. :favorites21:

Anyhow, I thought I'd post some more propaganda:


600DPI scans, thanks to the poster who suggested this.

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/...y/IMG_0002.jpg

http://i1014.photobucket.com/albums/...y/IMG_0001.jpg


Video of the coin being weighed and measured:

Note: Before you watch this, I have to admit that I made a little mistake. The day we bought the coin, I measured its thickness as 1.68mm but when I posted, I was going from memory and inverted the numbers... resulting in an incorrect number of 1.86mm. Big difference? Yes, depending on your perspective.

I apologize for the mistake, but I did not always have physical possession of either coin and the calipers at the same time, and was having to go off memory. The PD has already been called and are coming over to take this coin into evidence either tonight or tomorrow morning.

I think the fact that these are really 1.65 (measurement on this one) -1.68mm (my measurement on the one we cut, which I do not have access to right now), even thinner than we have discussed, is good in that it means the coin would definitely be more noticeable in a Fisch, and that it further limits the possibilities counterfeiters could use for an alloy. In my rather amateur opinion (I am not bad when it comes to scrap gold, but numismatics are not my cup of tea by any means), this takes this coin from the level of "friggin' incredible fake" to "pretty decent fake." I also noticed that the diameter on this one is slightly lower, about 0.03mm. Possibly just user error but it is also possible that the two coins had slightly different specs.

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Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Still interested?

If so, and I can get one of the coins, we can use Escrow.com, or some other well known escrow service.

I plan on getting a full assay done if we can retain the other half of the second coin; but I am already walking on a tight rope here and cannot have any wiggle room to temporarily keep a sample if I have a bunch of cowboys calling up the PD and asking them to provide information on open investigations.

News flash, guys - the police are not going to give you jack shit about an open investigation. They don't know you, they don't care who you are, and even if they did know you, they are not going to share anything unless you have an absolute need to know.

I agree that this is more important than a theft (even a large scale one), but the police don't know that, probably wouldn't care. I am not going to go to jail for withholding evidence just so I can please some doubters at GIM.

I will do everything I can to keep either the sample we have, or, even better, a full coin. Pretty soon I'll have to surrender the other coin, in addition to the one waiting on the cops right now. But like I said, I will try to purchase one or more of these from the owner after I've shown him that they are counterfeit.

I've explained this twice now in simple terms a child could understand. You are a complete f*cking moron. Do you even fully read posts you respond to? If you did, we wouldn't be having this "conversation."

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I have to give it to these guys - 480 grains?

I mean, damn! They could've still slid by with 479 or 481, most would write that off to the scale...

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I hate to nit pick, but the scale shot on the video did not show it at zero before the coin was placed on it or after it was removed.

Since you claim they are 18k gold and 1 troy ounce, I will offer you $725, which is $10 over 100% melt value. That would give you at least a 7% premium over what you could get for them melting and a $425 profit on your $300 investment.

I will buy every coin that you have that weighs 31.1 grams and falls into the official posted dimensions of the mint at that rate.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

At 1.65mm thickness it's nearly 18% too thin. That's a good thing for detecting with calipers. Though if it's 18% too thin you'd think it couldn't be 90% gold if it weighs correctly?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Um, it did not assay at 18K. It assayed at just over .900.

WTF is up with people responding when they haven't even kept up with the thread?

Anyway, I will make another video showing the scale at zero before and after. You're right on that point.

Yeah, the extra .21mm is surely enough to trigger the Fisch test.

I feel bad about inverting the numbers, but hey, at least I was right about them being fake.

:ARMS1:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Skeptic, in your line of business did you ever come across any fake 1-oz GAE's?

Just curious.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

From your very first post, my bold - I thought acid never lied.

It still does not make sense that the coin is at spec or less and still weighs a full ounce.

Offer stands. I will take all you got that falls within mint specs at 18k weight, full melt plus $10 for freight.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Measurement in grains, showing 0 and 0. 480 when the coin is on the scale.

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Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The guy who said he didn't want to nitpick had a very valid point.

You, on the other hand, are really nitpicking here. I got your PM, and no hard feelings, but I think you are trying to twist my words.

When I said that acid doesn't lie, I was referring to the fact that the coin could not be 24K (and not even 22K) if the acid melted a sample. I did not claim to know for certain what the gold content was. I was surprised that it was higher than 18K - but I was not surprised to learn that it was not 22K or 24K.

It does not make sense, especially since I do not yet know what the alloy is. But what parts of these videos do you dispute? Does the coin in fact weigh 1ozt? Does it in fact have a diameter within the margin of error? And is it not far too thin?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I appreciate the scans and video...but I am more perplexed than before because the dimensions are even less than previously stated at 1.65 mm thickness ( 2.0 mm mint spec) and 36.96 mm diameter (37mm mint spec) and 31.1 g (31.103 g mint spec). The alloy is much denser than gold, and much denser than tungsten...WTF is it? Platinum would probably make up for it...but nothing cheap can do it.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Weigh the coin, measure the coin and then do the acid test at the same time would prove to me that you have something funky on your hands.

Again, if the weights and dimensions work out, IMHO it does not make economic sense to fake them.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Not that I know of. There was a 1oz Liberty we bought that two dealers independently stated the mintmark and possibly date had been messed with, but we scrapped it as a regular coin and we never heard anything bad. So I suppose the metal content was what it was supposed to be.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Somehow I dont think they are using radioactive uranium to counterfeit gold. Maybe the OP should have been using a geiger counter instead of acids to test, hehe.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm sorry, but I have a hard time believing that the police department is just waiting for you to bring in evidence to them. It typically works the other way around, detectives come to you, ask or demand that you turn over the evidence, then they fill out the paperwork. They have knowledge that you possess items that likely belong to someone else, so they have a legal responsibility to secure it as soon as they can. It also gives them an opportunity to "look around" for other things. Maybe they want to review your "books" for names, other evidence, etc. You might be a real nice guy and fully cooperating with the police, but I still can't see them waiting for you to bring the goods to them.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The police do not expect us to keep a 30 day backlog, which would amount to tens of thousands of dollars in gold, at a cart in the mall.

They know that we keep things in a safe deposit box, and we were given a card and told to bring the gold to them. I was not there at the time and don't know further details about the conversation. But I do know that they looked through our records and copied the one involving the coin. They already had multiple people in custody at that time and I don't think them having the coin within 5 minutes makes or breaks their case. I'm sure there is still work to do for them; but we are not exactly top priority.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I have NEVER said this thing makes a whole lot of sense.

I cannot figure out a financial incentive to create 90% 24K coins either, especially if you are using more expensive metals as an alloy.

But let's start with the videos - are they fake? Are the measurements or weights fake? How am I fooling you guys in the videos?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Your coin specs out at:
dia. 36.96 mm
wt. 31.1 grams (1.00 ounce)
thickness 1.65 mm

This calculates out to a specific gravity of 1.21 times that of pure gold. You say the coin assayed 90% gold. Then the other 10% of the coin would have to have a specific gravity of 3.1 times that of gold. There is no such element in periodic table.

This whole story sounds too fantastic to be true.:confused_ma:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Not really. It's actually 10% not gold in the outer layer plus the inner disk of unknown material. We don't know the actual size of the inner disk, so we cannot calculate the exact specific gravity.

This is either a great hoax or a great tale. Sometime the truth is stranger than fiction, but only rarely. Either way I look forward to reading more.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

My calculation is a best case scenario: the other material would at minimum have a specific gravity that is 3.1 times gold, whether the coin is homogeneous or heterogeneous in composition. I have some years training and experience in analytical chemistry - this is very basic stuff.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I don't think it's a best case scenario. I think your scenario assumes both coins are flat disks. In actuality, it depends on if the actual coin should have more indentation than the fake has or not. I did a quick calc and, for

dia. 36.96 mm
wt. 31.1 grams (1.00 ounce)
thickness 1.65 mm

the coin has a specific gravity of 17.5. Of course, that ignores any indentations. Your calculation assumed it was indented in the same proportions as the original (I think).

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Add to that, I believe the original poster stated he acid tested the inside of the coin, the one that he filed section out of.

This whole thread is fascinating, terrifying, and just all around confusing to me. But, I'm learning a lot from this.

To make that good of a fake coin, takes effort, time, equipment...why do that for bullion? Could they be 'testing' their skills before tackling numismatic coins?

It would be great to know what that other metal was. This whole thing could be huge, once the Austrian mint gets wind of it.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I could video myself taking measurements and weighing a Phil pretty easily. I do not want to dig the Phil I have up though (literally). I am sure it would weight exactly 31.1 grams and have the proper dimensions.

It would be much more interesting to show that exact same coin failing a 22k test. Show me that, and your point is proven.

Otherwise, it looks like you just filmed a nice coin that you bought cheap.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

i'll take the same deal and math. Works for me at 90%. What say you?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The point is the coins is claimed to be thinner than a real one should be (1.65mm vs 2mm)

I'm a bit concerned about the dimension measurements here. It looks to me like the measurement of the thickness is being taken inside the rim where the coin is thinner.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Humm, lets's see. Thanks the OP, for a bs video not zeroed out the scale, which proves nothing. 69 posts, join date May 19. Humm, maybe I'm just paranoid, probaly nothing, I'm going back to sleep. Although, If i were truly paranoid i would think that ds mustang was your alternate ego. Your writing style is the same too. But like i said, I'm just a tin foil hat, paranoid, SKEPTIC. i apologize mustang if I'm wrong and time will tell.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

SKEPTOBAMA, where's that damn birth certificate, by birth certificate i mean Secret Service report, this treasury business, not the local county sheriff or police department. i want to see that birth certificate.

:favorites8::favorites8::favorites8::favorites8::f avorites8::favorites8:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Look, let's not quibble about a difference of a couple of percent. Given the specs provided by the OP, that coin is a physical impossibility. And, if the thickness was measured incorrectly and is actually 2mm, and the coin is really 90% gold alloy as stated, then it represents a pointless exercise in making a fake coin that is more costly than the real coin. I'm getting this terrible feeling - that this entire thread is much to do over nothing. Sorry "TheSkeptic" but you've made one out of me.:mad_m:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm thinking they are real (but stolen). Possibly some surface contaminant is throwing off the acid test...?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I've wasted too much time with this already. From here on out, I will not respond to your post if:

• it looks like it was written by a 3rd grader.
• it is intended only to flame or talk about how unconvincing the evidence is, and not to advance the conversation with logical points.
• you clearly have not watched both videos (Fermentation) or have not carefully read preceding posts (too many to call by name). There are way too many obnoxious drive-by commentators here. RTF thread, all of it, in detail, before you go spouting your opinion. You may have missed something important in your haste to look genius.

Now, for those of you who who given me the pleasure of a great discussion and are making valid points, here are some honest questions I think are very relevant:

1. If I have a disc of .999 gold measuring 37mm by 0.35mm, what would it weigh? If it would weigh even 1 grain, then how can 0.35mm be a physically possible "tolerance" allowed by the Austrian Mint?
2. From a purely financial standpoint, there is no apparent reason to counterfeit a .999 coin with .900 and some other, more expensive metal. But are there possible motives other than financial gain to do so? Why have warring nations routinely counterfeited each other's currencies?
3. I repeat - what am I faking now? The weight? The thickness? The diameter? Do the videos do nothing to establish these specs?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Mamboni,

You made a perfectly good calculation but I believe you made an incorrect assumption. That the entire coin tested 90% gold. This is not true. He said that the gold layer tested at 90% but that there was a small disk inside the coin. Correct? I've only just skimmed through the whole thread before work. Iridium (1.16 x spec grav of gold) is about the only metal that would be cheap enough, not really sure about price or ability to make disks, in order to get the correct weight. So lets guess that the gold alloy has a specific gravity around 18.5 or so. By my tired late night calculations we could get the right weight with an Iridium disk that was about 20% of the total weight of the coin. This also puts the amount of gold in the coin at about 22.4g.

Still this seems highly unlikely for somebody to go through this trouble. However, perhaps the only people that would make since in this are some unsavory folk who would not only like to stretch their limited gold reserves to meet the demand and all the while making people worried about buying gold and getting scammed. Hmmm, does anyone know these types who might also know some good coin producers... Just wondering.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The whole argument can be solved by putting all your claims on one continuous video clip.

Weight it, measure it and acid test it.

If all 3 do what you have claimed, you have a fantastic story that will change the bullion market. And I will pay you DOUBLE spot price for that coin.

Right now, it is only a fantastic story.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'm not sure here, but if your definition of "disc" is a pure disc of some other, denser metal, then there is no disc. We cut one of the coins in half. There is a definite difference in color under magnification, but it runs throughout the center of the coin, it isn't a small concentrated area.

I will try to do that tomorrow. Like I said, I have already wasted a lot of time with this, not to mention that I have purposely delayed turning over evidence we have been asked to give up by a police department we need to be on good terms with.

If they have not picked up the coin by tomorrow evening when I am back in that direction (I live about 30 minutes away from where it is right now), I will do it. The video will be about 5 minutes long or so, because when I tried today, it took a while for the acid to eat through the sample.

But the whole point should be moot, because even assuming my thickness measurement was a little off and the coin is really, say, 1.75mm (it is DEFINITELY not 2mm), are you really going to sit here and say that a 37x.25mm disc of .999 is weightless? Not even 1 grain? I think you see the implication here. So go dig out and video all the Phils you want. It doesn't change the obvious truth one that weighs the exact same amount as yours but is noticeably thinner.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

now he's not dealing with our (my) third grade posts. He's buying time to post his fake evidence. This a serious matter, I care not what you think of me. Show us the damn goods buddy. I wonder if the Austrian mint would be interested in this thread and your claims.Maybe they'll sue you for fraud and defamng their products, would could arguably cause them to lose sells in the future. maybe we should send this thread over to the Austrians, they seem pretty thorough to me, I'm sure they would be interested in this matter as it would affect their profit margin IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE! If you're lying, you're potentially causing them money, and I'm sure they would want to know that too. Don't you think? Anyone reading this, and taking you seriously would question their buillon investments in Philarmonic. And why in the hell would thugs/rednecks have philharmonic fake coins OF ALL THE COINS ONE WOULD CHOSE TO Counterfeit or hustle? WHY? How many Redneck rap thugs as you described them can even spell Philharmonic, least of all know the value of such a thing. Even my well travelled, wealthy boss, hasn't seen one or would know the value of such a thing. Why not counterfiet GAE, Krugs or a more well known coin? YOU SIR ARE A GOD DAMNED LIAR! PERIOD! GET OFF THIS BOARD!

I'll admit one thing, I've been a real azzhole about this, but yeah I'm an azzhole, evident by some of my smart azz threads and posts around here.Everyone knows that by now. Bu you SIR, have played upon the trust, sympathy, empathy, and kindness of some Gimmers I personally respect. That disgusts me to no end, so someone has to be the azzhole and call you out, because most GIMMERS are too kind and respectful to deal with a two bit hustler like you. So I'll take the hit for the team, and if I'm wrong I will apologize publicly in a separate thread. Smelly troll! Show me the damn birth certficate SKEPTObama, just show me!

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

i don't know, i reck'n i ain't got no clue what them redneck thugs was a' doin' with 'em. 'cause looking back, you know, and actually readin' the thread and all, i just can't find where anyone explained that. it's just not there, i say. damn! maybe if i go back and read it again, my ignorant, simple ass can find somethin'... but then again, my spellin', why it ain't so great, and i reck'n neither is my gramm'r or readin' comp-re-hension. and i shore hate all these big fancy scientific words everybody 'a wants t' be usin'. so that's why i don't always like to read the thread, 'cuz if the answer was back in thar, i might'n not even see it. i just say what i feel, and tell it straight, like i been taught.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Can the thickness of the coin be corroborated by another method of measurement? It is the critical dimension at this point.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I'd like to see a video of the thickness of the rim of the coin. From what I saw, the thickness inside the coin is 1.65, but what about the rim?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Can you recommend any tools? I will be glad to try what I can. The good thing is that the coin that has been cut and half fired is not with us right now, and I probably still have a few days I can stall before turning that one over. The one from the video will probably be in evidence tomorrow. But even with the half, I can re-measure thickness.

I'm still very anxious to hear opinions on what something along the lines of 37mmX.35mm of .999 would weigh.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

TheSkeptic,

My queustion is why do you care so much about the forums opinion. From your initial "we buy at 30%" post to your "I found fake phils" post, you seem to put so much effort to respond and prove yourself.

Personally, I would have said "Whatever everyone!! Pttff" and gave up on trying to convince anyone.

Now this being said, I'm sure others will see positive and negative reasons for you doing this.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The thickness at the rim is 1.65. I don't see any indentations on the coin rim, so isn't it safe to assume that the calipers stopped there and did not press in so hard that I got an inaccurate measurement?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Try measuring that coin using the tips of the calipers...that is the part you measure with, not the middle. That could screw the whole thing up.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

The same tool you used. If you look at about 1:25 in your first video, you're clamping on the inside of the coin (the micrometer is avoiding the coin rim). The micrometer has a ledge cutout on the inside of the tool. If you put the micrometer so that it clamps on the rim, you should get a thicker measurement. I don't know how to explain it better without pictures.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Partly because I love a good discussion. Partly because I am very honest and passionate in my opinions. Partly because I strongly believe that people should be building up PM stashes, and buying scrap way below spot is the cheapest way to do it. Partly because these coins fascinate me, and I think they are very important. Partly because I really enjoy learning, and am irritated by some of the jackasses here who think they have seen everything and know everything.

But mostly because I am paid $963.54 per week by the CIA to manipulate the bullion markets with hotly contested statements that no one really believes.

:111:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

How much difference do you think it would make? Maybe my first number (1.86mm) was right, and I just thought I had gotten the numbers inverted. It's a stretch, but I will measure the diameter again, whether it is on the whole coin tomorrow, or the half coin in a few days when we go back.

And am I also doing this in the second video?


Good night all.


P.S. Just for kicks - can someone please give an educated guess on what, say 37X0.35mm or even 37X0.25mm of .999 would weigh?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Umm, we can give an exact guess. Gold is 19.3 g/cm^3. Just calculate the volume. The first one has a volume of 0.376 cm^3 meaning a mass of 7.3 g. The second has a volume of 0.269 cm^3 meaning a mass of 5.2 g.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

WHAT 963.54!!! they only pay me 756.32 LOL!!! I'm talking to my handler!!!

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

let me help, since most liars can't usually remember the lies they tell.

This is a quote from your very first 1st post on page 1: ." What do you know - 30 minutes later - two thugged out guys come along with some more of these beauties. One claims to get them from (guess) his uncle! Also claimed that his "uncle" gave him a gold bar that he got $50,000 for. If you're going to try to pass counterfeit 1 oz gold coins, don't tell crazy stories and don't dress like you just came from being an extra in a gangsta rap video.



See where you say they say thugged out guys and gangsta rap video. That would be the thug reference, you lying piece of maggot excretement.

Also see on page 1, your 8th post: And to be frank, they all looked like white trash. One of the guys in the first group was black and looked pretty ghetto... just being blunt here

See where you say white trash ( not verbatim redneck, but close enough) some people interchange white trash and redneck - then you go on to mention the black thug.Not verbatim redneck, but you know it's close enough, you lying sack of gangrene pus . It's close enough! as i said earlier Thou PROTESTS TOO MUCH!!!!!

One other thing, when was the last time you guys saw white trash and black thugs hanging out together, pushing fake gold coins?:111::cry1: yeah I can see it now, Snoop Dog and Bubba, chilling in the mall together selling Fake Philharmonics!:cry1: two bad mutha uckers! huh?

Which city is this again?:cry1:

:signs14: This is AN EPIC FAIL, no matter how much evidence and fake pictures and etc you try to conjure up. I'll always see you as a two bit liar. so will many others. Better to not post again, and assume your new identity, maybe you're mustang with 69 posts ? Did you learn anything?
:wavey:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Keep your day job Sherlock. See my other interaction with him on this other thread if you think I'm his puppet.

Despite my opinion of what he does for a living, he's actually contributing very useful information in this thread. And that's a lot more than I can say for you.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

First of all I'd like to thank TheSkeptic for humoring us so far. The second video is pretty hard to argue with.

Give the cops a real philharmonic and bury this fake somewhere with your cellphone off and the battery removed.

I'm too lazy to do the math, but clearly: something F'ed up is going on here, and I'm at a loss for words for what in the hell type of magic material is inside of this coin.

Samples of the coin need to be taken to a metalurgist/university with a arc spectrometer and the metal content must be analyzed.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Dammmmmm.. And I thought I was blunt

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

TheSkeptic is within his rights to complain about personal attacks on that one. It's up to him on if he wants to excercise it.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

I agree. 'Fermentation' should be banned for the way he insults other users.

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Who cares, Theskeptic shouldn't sweat it.

Funny that we tell our kids the line "sticks and stones......."

But the adult generally don't follow it

:36_1_25:

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

A solid disk of 37mm x .35 mm of 999 gold would weight:

surface: 3.141592 * (3.7 cm/2) * (3.7 cm/2) = 10.7521 cm(2)
height : 0.035 cm
volume: surface * height = 0.3763 cm(3)
weight: 19.30g / cm(3) * 0.3763 cm(3) = 7.2630 g

In the case of a normal phili, if it was a solid and plain 9999 gold disk, it would be:

surface: 3.141592 * (3.7 cm/2) * (3.7 cm/2) = 10.7521 cm(2)
height : 0.2 cm
volume: surface * height = 2.150 cm(3)
weight: 19.30g / cm(3) * 1.505 cm(3) = 41.503 g

But because the coin field is less than 2 mm (the field is less thick), and less wide (the ridded edge is not plain) it gets lower than 41.5g.

Now that I look at it, does anyone has a real gold philharmonic coin that can test its specifications? I'm starting to think that the Austrian mint official specs are quite approximative.

Now, if the phili would be .900 gold instead of 9999, and 1.65 mm thick. Assuming a solid disk, and the .100 part made of silver, that would make it:

surface: 3.141592 * (3.696 cm/2) * (3.696 cm/2) = 10.7288 cm(2)
height : 0.165 cm
volume: surface * height = 1.7702 cm(3)
density of .900 gold, .100 silver: = (19.30g / cm(3) * 0.900 + 10.49g/cm(3) * 0.100 = 18.419 g/cm(3)
weight: 18.419 g/cm(3) * 1.7702 cm(3) = 32.606 g

Now, accomodate for the lower field and rim, and you can easily reach 31g, a full troy oz.

You can see that a .900 gold coin can be made into a phili disc spec (even thinner), but with a higher field than the genuine article, and still be real .900 gold.

I think that's the solution of the puzzle. . Now, if that's true, the .900 phili should have the field much higher than the genuine article, and less relief. Can someone post a high resolution scan of an (alleged) real austrian gold philharmonic coin?

Lets take a Gold Maple for example, according to the official specs are 30 mm wide, 2.87 mm thick, so it makes, if it were a solid gold disk:

surface: 3.141592 * (3.0 cm/2) * (3.0 cm/2) = 7.06858 cm(2)
height : 0.287 cm
volume: surface * height = 2.0286 cm(3)
weight: 19.30g / cm(3) * 2.0286 cm(3) = 39.15 g, which is less than the phili specs, but still leaves a wide margin for the depressed field.

Now, the 1 million dollar question, who would go out of their way to produce such .900 fake phili?

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Count me in on the vote, those insults were uncalled for. Hell any insult to another user is uncalled for. Way out of hand

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

Now, how to protect oneself against such fakes? Easy: only buy .9999 gold coin, and acid test them: Since they -should be- .9999, it won't damage the coin, and it will prove that - at least the surface - is .9999

Re: Will these people PLEASE stop bringing me counterfeit coins?
 

That's enough already,

thread closed.